Hi, my name is Misha Calvert and this is Film on Tape, an audio library of everything that I have learned as a filmmaker.
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All right, on to the show.
Tribeca Film Festival is right around the corner and we're bringing back one from the vaults in honor of Tribeca. This is a conversation that I had with my friend Ben Thompson, who is, well, number one, the nicest man alive. Number two, he's the head shorts programmer at Tribeca Film Festival. And we had him on the old podcast back when it was unlikely protagonist with myself and my co-host Brett Epstein, and asked him to come on. He very graciously agreed to come on, and honestly spilled a lot more secrets than I thought he would. He was very candid in how he spoke about short film submissions and selections and what he looks for in a film.
So I really enjoyed this conversation with Ben and I hope that you do too.
So here we are, Ben Thompson from Tribeca Film Festival.
So Ben, we're just wondering what you actually do for Tribeca as the head shorts programmer?
So for Tribeca, I watch a lot of the short film submissions and myself and my colleague Sharon Baddow every year get thousands of submissions from around the world. And it is our job to work our way through them and select what we think would be interesting and engaging for audiences, and then construct programs out of those films. So in a typical program, we might look at something like comedy, for example, and we would put together a number of comedy shorts in a program and then present it to Tribeca. So that's sort of it in a nutshell.
How many short film submissions did you get this year?
This year for Tribeca, we received over 7200 short films submissions, which was a record for us. I think in the years that I've been working for Tribeca, it seems to have gone up and up each year. So every year is a new record, which is great because it means a lot of people are making films. But it also gives us a lot of films to watch as well, which is... can be quite daunting when you look at this sort of thing.
Ben, what is the length of the film that is accepted to be considered a short film?
So Tribeca goes by the Academy qualifying guidelines. So a short for them is between one and 40 minutes. So the longest it can be is 39 minutes and 59 seconds. And but I think the majority fall in range anywhere between like 12 to 24 minutes.
Out of the 70 to 200, how many will screen this year at Tribeca?
We have selected 43 in competition.
Wow.
I know. It's just, it's...
Wow.
It's competitive. Let's just say that. When I throw out those sorts of numbers, it's never meant to discourage filmmakers. I always then kinda practice it with - these are different kinds of things you can think about to give your film better odds to be selected. But the reality for most of the top tier festivals is you are jumping into a huge pool with a lot of films. So it's amazing when you are selected, but that shouldn't reflect on the quality of your film. It's just, there are only so many slots and so, so many films.
I'm wondering why do you think the number of total submissions has continuously gone up? I'm sure there's a couple factors. Is it just people, more people are making films or Tribeca has gained a whole lot of traction or what do you think?
I think definitely the reputation of Tribeca has grown over the years. When I first started and I would call up filmmakers and this was decades ago, I would be like, and yes, we would love to select your film for Tribeca. And they would be like, Oh yeah, that's great. When's Tribeca again? Oh yeah, definitely. I'll see if I can make it. Yeah, that sounds fun. Thank you. Thank you so much. And now it's really like, you know, people have said, I just need a minute. I've got to go and open my window so I can scream and then I'll come back and talk to you. But thank you so much. it really, you know, to see the festival evolve and how much it means to people to screen there. I think that's part of it. There are certain festivals around the world, like Sundance, Toronto, Venice, that really, even if you're not in the film industry, even if you don't know that much about film, you could say to someone on the street, if I got my film into Sundance, and they would be like, that's fantastic, I've heard of that. Well, I got my film into Cannes or Tribeca, and you get to that level of, there's no duality of reputation. It really means a lot to be able to launch your film on one of these platforms.
How did you grow to become a world-class festival? What were some of the building blocks to that?
I think Tribeca was fortunate in that it had a lot of the right ingredients from the start. I mean, it was founded back after the September 11 attacks as a way to really rightfully revitalize downtown Manhattan after people had kind of stayed away after the towers had come down. And so it had this like, you know, mission already built into it. This is why we are starting a film festival. It was started by Robert De Niro, Jane Loews and Colin Krakatkoff with that aim. And it was New York as well. And I think the founding sponsor was American Express. So right off the bat, you had De Niro, New York, American Express, it was really a great ingredient for success. You had money, you had star power, and you had a city that's very iconic in the film industry. So that really kind of gave it a good start. And what I think a lot of people don't know is that it wasn't seen as a festival that was going to continue. It was short term project, maybe a year, maybe two years to bring people down and then it would be done. And last year we just had our 20th, 20th festival.
Wow. Wow.
Can you tell us a little bit about how you climbed the ladder there? How did you get this position at Tribeca? What interests you about it? And yeah, just what's the journey been like for you?
I started as an intern and that was, I think my first, it was my first job in New York. I, as you can probably tell, I'm not a native New Yorker. I came from the UK and I was looking for a way to get into film. And a friend had mentioned there was this company that started down the road and you know, I should go and talk to one of the people down there. He said, I sometimes have coffee with the guy. So I ended up at Tribeca and had a really good chat with a fellow named Jack Eisenman, who was lovely and gave me, a kid off the street, you know, 30 minutes of his time to just talk about his journey into the film industry. And as we were finishing, he was there, he said, Oh, we also have an internship program here. If that's something you're interested in. I was like, yes, that that would be great. And then just being in that environment, you start to learn lots of - I was working in production. And I found that there was - I knew of the film festival, I knew Tribeca had started the year before I started. So I had an awareness of what it was. And but once you're kind of in that environment, you start to really see how a film festival works, what elements go into it as a production of this kind of huge event.
So on that note, Ben, what are some of the building blocks of a festival that your average filmmaker or actor doesn't even think about?
Wow, so there are so many departments that kind of, that comprise of Film Festival. First of all, programming. I think, you know, people just think of a film festival and there's films being shown, but they don't really kind of think about the process in which those films are chosen or the people who are choosing those films. They just, it's a festival, there's films, these films just came from somewhere, but you know. They're great. I'll watch them. And then you get into all of the layers of everybody who's involved in putting these together from the screenings team who, you know, make sure all of the screenings are organized and scheduled, especially with a big festival. You have so much kind of overlap and films that have certain requirements. And it's really like trying to put together a giant jigsaw puzzle where, you know, you're keeping everybody happy - to the tech team and the [??] team that these films are sent in and you have this team that works 24 hours to make sure they all go up on screen. It's not like a traditional movie theater where you have a film and you have a run, you have maybe three to four different film screenings in one night. When I first started and they were all on different formats. So you've got 35 millimeter HD cam or 16 millimeter. So these projectionists were just constantly on and sometimes managing four or five theaters at the same time. And then production that just makes sure everything kind of happens. That's a department that doesn't stop as well. So it's so many, so many people in public. It really is kind of, it still baffles me to this day.
As well as the film screenings, you also have a full slate of talkbacks and seminars and literal just events that have nothing to do with the actual screening of the footage. Is that right?
Yeah, that's - that's one way I think Tribeca has evolved. And if you - if you notice, not many people have, some people have. But the word film has actually been removed now. It's the Tribeca Festival because it encompasses so much - it's talks, it's podcasts. It's immersive, it's games, it's master classes, it is film still, but there's so much else that is going on. To call it just a film festival would be a little, perhaps, narrow in terms of our scope and what we are actually now.
I'm wondering, Ben, what would you say is the most challenging part about your job and the most rewarding part to you?
The most challenging is the selection process in that when you go from the sheer number of films we screen, 7,200 in this case, to such a small amount, those decisions are thought about, agonized over, you know, weighed in, you know, you are going to be not selecting, you know, hundreds of incredible films. Films that deserve to be at the festival, films that have the quality, films that did nothing wrong. They're a great film, but it's often against another great film and you have to really balance what you're doing. So that's probably the most challenging aspect. Myself and my colleague Sharon really spend a long time on that process. We sort of managed the schedule over the years. So that is now one of our longest chunks of time. We really wanted to extend that so we can talk and talk and talk and talk and really lay up these decisions that we're making because you never, it's so hard to see if they're on the, this is great and we're not gonna show it. Like that's tough. The most rewarding part is inviting the films as well. It's interesting that whole kind of, it's yeah, it's all about the same process, like calling up filmmakers, telling them that they've been selected for the festival. And then, I mean, you know, seeing their journey kind of come to - come to fruition with - on the big screen and standing next to them as as the lights go down and their film goes up. That's, that's incredible.
It's beautiful.
Can I jump in for one second and just tell you that I love coaching people? I've been doing it for over a decade, working with high net worths, executives, a lot of actors, a lot of writer-directors, people looking to activate their creativity. I freaking love it. The thing that I like most about it is that we really, really get results, whether that's bringing in five or six figures more of income, if it's... getting signed by a manager or an agent. If it's booking a Broadway show, I have helped my clients do all of these things. You can find out more at ClubVermilion.com or you can always send me an email at info at ClubVermilion.com. I would love to speak to you on the phone about it. You can sign up for a free call. So wherever you want to get to, I would love to help you get there. Okay, back to the show.
Now, let's say you see hundreds and hundreds of films that are very caliber and you don't have room for in the festival. Do those filmmakers then the following year resubmit or do you reach out to them and say, please resubmit or how does that work?
Unfortunately, they - once you submit it, you can't resubmit unless you have changed the film quite drastically. Let's say you sent in a very rough cut. Because the deadline was coming up and you didn't have much time left. And you're like, okay, I just want to get something to them. And you sent what you had, it wasn't selected. And then you're like, well, I've got another year and if I move this scene around, tweak the ending, I think I can make it. You've changed it. And you're like, I'm going to give it another go. It's rare. I think I can probably count on my hand for short films how many times that has happened and resulted in a selection, but it definitely has a few times. It's just not very common.
Hearing you talk about the pain of having to turn down so many good films, well, it makes me feel very seen and very reassured because we as filmmakers kind of have this image of programmers and big festivals like, you know, the top three Sundance, Tribeca, South By [Southwest] as like this impenetrable fortress and does anyone even actually watch our films? So it's so comforting to see you respond in this way and like get emotional about it.
Well, I think that's one of the things that I really, I really try to do a lot and go and speak to filmmakers. I talk to film students, I talk to filmmakers whenever I can, so really put a face on what can be, as you said, an impenetrable fortress, a kind faceless organization. You don't know where your film is going. And filmmakers are so used to having such a level of control over their whole project. Like you really are, as a director, you're shaping everything that you want on that screen. And once you kind of release it out into the world, it's like sending your child off to school for the first time. You have no idea what's going to - what's going to happen. And if you just hope they have like a fun day and come back, but you, you, it's really jumping into the, into the unknown. So the more you can kind of put the face, the human kind of personality to that, to say, you know, this is someone who is, who is watching my film. I, you know, they may not select it, but they will watch it and they'll watch it with an open mind and open heart, you know, and really wanting to, to like it. I mean, I often say this, programmers are rooting for your films. Like, you know, we don't want you to make bad films and not get selected. We want you to make great films. And then for us to have these agonizing conversations about what we can put in, because, you know, every, the next film that comes along, we are always hoping that it's going to be great. You're going to love it. And you can make someone's - you can kick off someone's career.
Yeah, I love that word that you used - personality - because I can imagine on the flip side, sometimes filmmakers might not react so well to not getting in. Do you have any fun stories about that?
Uh oh.
There was always going to be disappointment.
Any horse heads show up in your office?
No, no horse heads in my - my office yet. My colleague, especially in the early days, I think Sharon would always get the brunt of it. She is a lot more forward facing than myself. She was a professor at NYU, so she's very easy to find. I was a little more difficult, so she really took the brunt of the angry emails. But I think a lot of that is really managing your own expectations, especially knowing your chances of getting into a festival. It's not like you buy a lottery ticket and you don't win the lottery and you kind of go back to the store and you start screaming. like, yeah, I bought this ticket. I should have won. You feel like you had a chance. But you know, it's - there are tough odds involved. I think for - I think for filmmakers, you know, I've made films and submitted to film festivals. I know the other side of it as well. It's always disappointing. And I think it's sometimes disappointing, especially if you can't have that conversation with someone to say, why didn't my film make it in? I get a lot of those, just people needing that kind of closure and sense of like, okay, I understand the odds were tough, but did you not like my film? Did it not work for you? Did you understand it? Almost like the end of a relationship as well. Someone's just like, okay, we're done, the end. You're like, okay, but I need something and then I'll accept that and go away.
So you have to break up with 7,100 people every year.
That's one way of putting it.
That's how my boyfriend dumped me last year.
So Jeremy, if you're listening to this, you piece of shit. But back to you, Ben. I have never attended Tribeca Film Festival. It just seems like a place where movie lovers unite and it just seems like it must be so magical to be there and watch the screenings. Can you just tell me about what it's like when the event goes live and it's here, it's time and what's it like to be there?
Every year it is a different set of filmmakers. I mean, we have filmmakers who return as well, but the predominantly it's filmmakers who are experiencing the festival for the first time. So you really kind of feed off their excitement and anticipation. And I don't think this, you know, screening a film, especially for the first time in front of a live audience in a film festival is just, you know, I've seen the adrenaline going through filmmakers who've been totally, totally cool the whole time. And then suddenly you can see them almost shaking with anticipation and excitement. And that's, you know, that really kind of feeds into it, into everything we do. Sounds so corny, but it's kind of, it's magic. I mean, when those lights go down and you know, something you have created as a filmmaker goes up on a big screen to a bunch of people who have never seen it before and are excited to see it or, you know, excited to hear someone talk for the first time, we'll see a new game. Or see an experience like that you haven't you haven't had before. It's, know, that's that's what we all I think it's as human beings crave like new - new experiences and new - I mean, storytelling is so ingrained into into our history into our DNA. And it's the - it's a collective kind of experience where there's there's few things that we do in this way with like total strangers, we're all going to go into a room and watch a story or like experience a story in some way. It's magical, right?
It is magical. kind of got chills, to be honest, because like, so I've had a few films play festivals, like at the tier, tier or two below Tribeca. And even then, even then, I feel the magic. I make, I fly there, I get there, I train, whatever I have to do to get there and be a part of the celebration of a film that I worked on. I will try my damnedest to be there. Because that's to me a very important piece of the process. Once it's done, I want to celebrate it. I want to watch it with people. And so I imagine doing that at Tribeca would be such a, wow, such a peak, such an achievement for a filmmaker to be there and experience. So yeah, that is natural.
I know when I was in the creators market at Tribeca a couple of years ago, even that, that wasn't screening, but I was in the pitch market. And just the buzz and the amount of executives and the amount of other filmmakers who are at, you know, starting the peak of their careers and really doing exciting stuff. Just the energy alone was so delicious and addictive. And it just made me want to go back and back and back every year.
Well, I feel, you know, just being accepted in tech into any festival, you know, there's just - it's. It is really competitive, but it's, you get that energy absolutely. You get that excitement with everything that's happening. It's a sense of like, I've made it and you have because it's so difficult to do. I really feel for filmmakers, especially because you create a film and you want to share it with as many people and you feel like if you're not being selected for film festivals, you're not getting that opportunity. So when you do get that opportunity, then it's special and you cherish it and you are, you've got a stage, you've got a platform, you know, you're ready to go.
Ben, obviously this is a very time consuming job that you do, but do you still make films today? Are you still, do you still consider yourself a filmmaker actively?
It's, I started, interestingly enough, I started programming and I considered that my day job. I was like, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, it's a great day job. I'm gonna watch films, I'm gonna learn, I'm gonna expand my education and I'm gonna go and make even, even better films. And somewhere along the way it kind of got flipped around in that programming became my career and filmmaking became something that I do if I, when I have time, if I get a good idea. It's really difficult and I think that's, it's really difficult to take your idea from an idea to realization. And that's one of, you know, I will always have a tremendous respect for every film that submits to Tribeca, whether, you know, whether it's strong, whether it's not, whether it's something we consider, whether it's not, because they made it. I mean, you did. You made that film and that's not easy. Like that's the first step. And so to answer your question, but I probably, I don't think I've made anything for while, but I watch a lot more films now.
That reminds me of a saying that a producer once told me that every finished film is a miracle.
That'll be true.
For all of our filmmakers in the audience, do you have any tips on just really low hanging fruit of what not to do with your short film?
This is kind of playing like the odds game a little. So out of those 7,200 films at Tribeca, the biggest pool is going to be straight now to drama. So if you're making a fiction film that's dramatic, then just know that that's pretty much what everybody is making. And if you are making it a little bit heavier, like on death or grief or depression, then a lot of people are making those types of films as well. And I think it's something that filmmakers often fall into when they're trying to resonate their idea with an audience to kind of tap into an emotion. And those are very easy emotions for us to understand. We all find pretty much the same things, or we can agree on the same thing, on things that are sad or like... even tragic, whereas we get a lot fewer films that are, I think, joyful or funny or quirky because that's a little more specific. And then again, if you make a narrative as opposed to documentary or animation, we get a lot fewer short documentaries and even fewer short animation. Or if you're a student film and you're submitting something as a student, it's a much smaller competition that you're going into. So my advice for filmmakers is always that it's actually to research, especially if you're looking to get into film festivals and understand that when you are submitting to the major film festivals, it is you're going into a bit of a lottery, no matter how well you've made your film. And sometimes looking at other festivals where you will have an amazing experience and you'll still get that feeling of screening your film in front of an incredible audience, like film festivals, YouTube, you know, the whole town gets involved in that production and you just feel that same sense of excitement and everybody is there to watch your film. And so sometimes like, you know, looking at where your film could play specifically. It's like if it's a genre film, maybe look at some of the genre festivals or films that have kind of late night program. If it's LGBTQ, you have like, so many film festivals that really kind of specialize in those types of films as well. So that's, that's, that's all we're telling. So really where your film could fit and being realistic with your own expectations.
Your answers are so logical. Like I'm like, yeah, you're right. Filmmakers do go to drama first, grief first, all the festivals - you're right. How many about grief am I seeing? You're right. Wow. That really got me thinking.
Which is funny because I think that Brett, you and I as filmmakers don't default to that.
Right.
We default to the comedy and to quirky.
Exactly.
It's so interesting because Comedy doesn't often win as many awards. Right. So I think one thing, it's a real risk as a film. If you make a dramatic film and your audience is kind of silent from beginning to end, you don't know, they could have enjoyed it. They might not have. It doesn't matter. You can make up whatever you want in your head. Whereas if you make a comedy and you play it and the audience is silent, it's like, oh my God, that's, you know. That's death. It's a [??]. You failed. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and again, with something like comedy, we all have different senses of humor. Like something that I find hilarious, you might be like, it's okay. Like, you know, getting six people in a room to agree that something is funny is a lot harder than getting the same people to agree something is sad because people have very different types of of humor. So you can make comedy if you're funny. Please make comedy because I think the world needs to laugh a bit more because it
Needs.
Really.
Needs to smile, needs to be reminded there is joy and good things. Such terrible things that happen in the world as well. So, you know, when I think people go to cinema, go to the movies to experience that magic and be entertained and taken away from that a little sometimes then whenever we put on a comedy program or something different, those tend to sell out pretty fast.
Ben, is it just, you know, it's with you and your colleague Sharon. Are there other eyes on it deciding which get in or is it you two only?
No, we have a huge team that is based based around the world. I mean, that's kind of technology. We have every people in everywhere from Nepal to Argentina to Scotland to Denmark. Like Canada, like everywhere, UK, it's a real global team. And they watch so many of the films as well, but it does usually come down to Sharon and I staring across the desk at each other and say, is this the one? Yes, we think it is. Maybe, no. So the whole process is kind of filtered. So there are a of eyes and there are a of different kind of backgrounds and experiences that will we're looking for film, but both Sharon and I will watch a lot of what are called cold submissions, in which case nobody's recommended it to us. We're just looking in the database. This sounds interesting. We're going to watch it first. So we do that with probably about maybe a sixth of the films and then the rest are recommended to us by the screening team. Like someone has seen something, has thought it's fantastic, they'll send it to us. We'll look at it and we'll also agree it's fantastic. And then they'll be selected for the festival.
I see. So there's an amount of films that don't get to you and Sharon because another set of people have said this is not good enough to move forward.
Yes.
Got it.
If we watch 7200 films, we would probably go crazy.
You would not be here today.
No, I think I think I've watched 10,000 total in my career for Tribeca. So that's over years. So 7,200 in one year.
You would perish. You would perish.
Yeah, you would not have time for this. Yeah.
How do you preserve your sanity and self-care, especially during this crunch time, like leading up to the final decision making and then through the festival, the long hours? How do you kind of stay sane and alert and well rested during that time?
I think it's a slightly paradoxical for me. I run. So when I'm not watching films, I run. I love running. And so that kind of really helps me clear my mind a little. I think because I spend so much time sitting in front of a screen, actually getting out and moving - and to give you an example, when I first started, I started Tribeca, I would run like, you know, a couple of miles, you know, and now I'm - now I'm running kind of marathons just to preserve that kind of, to preserve my mental state and to really, you know, it's in a lot of ways it's kind of, I think, very, it's a very attractive profession for many people in that I've told people what I do and I say, you know, I watch films for Tribeca and they're like, oh my God, and they pay you to do that? Yes, and they're like, can I do that? And I'm like, yeah, but it's, it's not as, I think, fun as it sounds in that, think, you know, when you're doing something for pleasure, when you're watching a lot of films, or you watch a lot of television, you know, you're you're picking what you watch. Whereas when you are watching submissions, it is work.
They take you.
Yeah, especially for short films where you know, you are jumping from story to story to story. There's, you know, in the hours that in the day, you could probably watch like 40 films if you just, you know, powered through them. And I have done that. But there comes a point where your your brain just is tired, is exhausted. It's it doesn't want to absorb another story. It's like and it's different than a feature where you can follow a narrative, a one narrative plot, one thread. Shorts, you're kind of jumping back and forth and you see something really sad and then you see something really funny and you see something really weird and see something experimental. It's a real jarring experience and you're just kind of, you never know what's coming next.
And you know that when you sleep, that your brain's thinking super highways. There's like a chemical that goes through like flushes the drain on all of the detritus that has built up - like imagine you have a thought about a film and it creates like detritus, like there's like excess like junk in your brain and when you sleep all the channels get flushed and that's why you wake up like able to think again.
Yeah I mean that's -
I just think that's so cool and and the power of naps
That helped, being well rested um I think that probably where the running comes in. I run, I tire myself out, I have a good night's sleep and then I can go and do it all again and be enthusiastic and excited You want, I think as a filmmaker, the very least you want someone to be looking forward to watching your film. You don't want that person who's watched like 25 and like, my God, I've got to put another one in. Okay, I'm going to put this in. I hate this film already, you know? That's absolutely what you don't want. You pay the submission fee. You want a fair review, a fair shot. You want someone who is gonna pay attention, who's gonna be focused on your film. Might not love it. It might not work for them, but at least you feel you've had that opportunity. It was fair.
Thank you so much for your wisdom, your insight, your optimism. you just have this - Yeah, it's so refreshing and it's so beautiful to witness that someone who has been doing this for so long and is so established at a prestigious world-class festival still has that, it's really like an innocence, if I can say that, like just a beautiful openness to films and filmmakers.
I think. To do anything for a long period of time. You've got to love it. You really, it has to be something you're passionate about, something you enjoy doing. I always watch films, but I never knew how much I loved them until it was a career and a job. I remember films from years ago that we didn't select in the festival that made an impression on me. That, you know, decade ago, you know, still pop into my head. I'm like, oh, yeah, that was a really good film. You know, it's so, it's, yeah, you got to love it,
Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Ben for your time today.
I can't believe how fast this went. Oh, I don't want to leave. Ben, you are a really fabulous guest. I just want to take a second to say that. This has been so insightful into - just insightful information into one of the most top tier festivals in the globe. I mean, what a delight. It was truly, Misha and I are really grateful to have you today.
Thank you. Thank you, Brett. It was an absolute pleasure to meet you as well.
And we'll see you at the festival.
For sure, Misha. I look forward to it. Take care.
Thank you so much for listening to Film on Tape. I really hope that it was helpful to you in some way. And if so, please feel free to leave a five-star review so that other people know this is a good podcast. If you want to check out my work as a writer-director, can see it at www.mishacalvert.com or drop me a DM. The best way to get a hold of me is on Instagram, @ Misha Calvert. See you next time.
